The Future of Heat Pumps is Underground (and other places, too!)

Publicerades den 1 apr 2021
If you thought you were pumped earlier, wait until you get a load of this! Policymakers, pay attention!
Heat Pumps Part 1
senewss.info/slow/bKyZaNB0oL_crNA/video
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Kommentarer

  • Hey everyone, it’s pinned comment time! And there are some *corrections and clarifications* here. Exciting! First, heat pumps part 1: senewss.info/slow/bKyZaNB0oL_crNA/video Second, refrigerants! Sloppy script-writing me didn’t catch that I implied CO2 as a refrigerant was the _only_ other option, but it’s not! There have been many climate-friendly refrigerants in use in lots of applications such as isobutane and propane, but the main trouble with these is they go boom sometimes. In larger systems the quantities needed can be dangerous which is why R-1234yf and CO2 as refrigerants are important! Third, heat pump dryers! My explanation into them is, um, well not right. It’s better to think of them as giant dehumidifiers that recirculate air through the drum. Heat slowly builds up, but it’s not really being taken from the room. Instead it’s just the heat created by the compressor being continually recaptured, and a sort of thermal feedback loop forms. The cold surface of the evaporator also pulls the moisture out to be collected. Here’s a video from This Old House that has a great diagram (though the refrigeration cycle’s magicalness of latent heat is pretty much skipped) senewss.info/slow/eceyY8tmpdXXna4/video Fourth, I regret saying it's a "myth" that tankless heaters provide instant hot water. More fairly I think it's a misconception. Fifth, I dunno! I’ll add stuff here as we go along. Aren’t pinned comments neat? I love being able to put information right up at the very top for you so you don’t have to waste your time commenting!

    • @K V unenforcable patent. what are they gonna do?

    • 11:23 will somebody please translate this sentence to noob-speak?

    • Here we have ground source heat pumps for summer - high cop even at 45 C ambient. To be technically correct (the best kind of correct) these systems are geoexchange or ground-source as distinct from geothermal

    • 100

    • @first lastmany people including me vent their electric clothes dryer inside in the winter. Just don't try it with a gas dryer.

  • Oh my. I disagree with you for the first time! I do hate heat pumps. Or to clarify, I hate modern heat pumps. They're overly complicated, prone to expensive breakdowns, and generally annoying to those of us unlucky enough to have to service them. Oil heat for the win!

  • Many EVs sold in UK and Norway have heat pumps as standard equipment, but the same EVs are often sold in the US with heat pumps being an option only available on the top trim, or worse yet not available at all. The only US market EVs I know of that have heat pumps as standard equipment on all trims are Tesla Model 3 and Y. Most EV heat pumps are air source heat pumps, and some also extract heat from the power electronics, but Tesla Model 3 and Y can also use their heat pumps to heat up the battery pack for DC fast charging and then extract that heat once back on the road to cool off the battery and heat the cabin. This is accomplished with something called "octovalve". I don't know of any other EV that can use a heat pump to transfer heat in both directions between battery pack and cabin. I'd really like to see other EV manufacturers go all in on heat pumps. They're great.

  • Can you make a vid about why central AC units freeze over? I have lived in 3 different places and it has happened at every single one!

  • I think climatemaster do a geothermal pump with heating, cooling *&* hot water all in one, very nice.

  • My middle school uses geothermal heat

  • Brilliant video! But as geologist, and a pedant, only in a very small number of places could you ever hit magma if drilling down. The temperature does rise the deeper you get, but because pressure does as well you only get melting of the hot solid rock (and even the mantle below the crust is pretty much entirely solid) if there is either a significant temperature deviation, or a decrease in pressure while temperature remains constant. Hence why more 'direct' geothermal energy, not using heat pumps, is only really possible in places like Iceland, where a big plume of hotter mantle material is rising underneath the island all the way from core-mantle boundary.

  • Heat pumps should be the future and should work in colder places.

  • One thing you did not cover and perhaps should have is equipment wear. Last Tuesday I replaced the scroll compressor on a ground source heat pump that was only ten years old. Unfortunately we see major components like evaporator/condenser coils, compressors and reversing valves go out on these units after 8-12 years. This is due in part because they are used more than twice as much as your typical air conditioning system since they are also handling heat loads. Definitely neat systems, but we have found them to be prohibitively expensive to run in SW MN simply because the equipment gets worn out too quickly. My Dad's heating system is a dual ground source heat pump and the equipment has been replaced twice since he installed it in 2004.

  • The moltent magma comment reminds me of the Geocore placements from Railroad Tycoon 2

  • have you done a video on hempcreet?

  • God I love these captions so much.

  • I. Love. This. Channel.

  • Thermal mass refrigeration systems. I work on these everyday. We don't run out glycol underground though we're in Texas lol

  • Great video but that 2.5 COP number is off. Natural gas combined cycle power plants are typically a bit over 50% efficient, topping out at 62%, while high efficiency furnaces and boilers are typically around 90%. Even ignoring renewable and nuclear energy, gas power only needs to be utilized at a COP of around 1.7-2.0 to break even on CO2 emissions. A COP of 2.5 or higher would burn significantly less gas than burning it locally.

  • Have you heard about what London is proposing? The subways get super hot due to how the trains move the air and the insulating properties of the ground, so they are attempting to use the subway tunnels as a heat source for pumps in the winter. This could be an idea for other cities as well.

  • Methane systems are notoriously leaky LOL. Taco Bell or White Castle any one 🔥! The hybrid water heaters have been a bust around here one manufacture had most all fail in short order it was a bit of a embarrassment for our REMC that offered a rebate on them . The geothermal has went well with a big rebate in the form of credits on out electric bills ! They said R134 was going to be the solution ? Bet the patent is running out as it was with R12. .

  • Maybe patents shouldn't be totally invalidated, when it comes to human necessary inventions, but they should be limited to equal prices of existing less developed systems. For example, the refrigerant you spoke about, R1234YF, should be sold at the same price as the older brother of R134a This way, you do not block inventions, but you do block excessive greed. If the inventor sells it for the same price as the old refrigerant, he will sell so much more, that he will probably make the same money, but without being too greedy. Lemogan

    • Excessive greed is just another word for self-interest-driven capitalism, which is not something I believe should be demonized. Since we're pitching ideas, why not offer government rebates for the superior refrigerant while the patent is in effect? It's in the government's interest to reduce emissions, it's in the patent owner's interest to sell more product, and it's in the consumer's interest to buy better alternatives at affordable prices. That could be the middle ground that satisfies everyone's needs. Right?

  • Dig down around here you'll find permafrost.

  • Too opinionated

  • You've put a whole lot of emphasis on heat pumps as if this is something you want. My experience with them isn't as cost effective as one might think. I'd love to discuss my experience with them, however, I have not found any good contact info for you for a private discussion. There are nuances that you don't know about and manufacturers/installers don't talk about. I've had all kinds of heating systems from oil to natural gas to heat pumps, and based on cost, I prefer natural gas. Both heat pump systems I've used (one currently in use) use reversible compressors. Both have been terrible on efficiency. I found it cheaper to move the thermostat from heat to "Emergency" or "Auxiliary". As both of these units were older systems, not a whole lot of technology in them. To reverse a compressor, is just a change in value of a phase capacitor. My preference in cost, is natural gas. Both systems have crummy thermostats of which will engage both the compressor and auxiliary/emergency heat if the thermostat senses a need to heat more than a few degrees. Seemingly pointless and costly if heating more than 20 degrees in comparison to outside temperature. I've been told by many heating and air techs over the last 20 years, that if an A/C unit is cooling by 10 degrees, it is working. I found the same to be true for heat pumps.

  • I was anticipating another "!!! TOO DEEP !!!" klaxon at around 25:30 😅

  • I'd also consider that when heating near the break even point in outdoor temperature, you're abusing a $2,000 compressor unit in order to preserve a cheap heat strip. No sense using the coils of a compressor as a resistive heat source. Ok it never gets that bad but you get my point. If you run a heat pump for all it's worth, an appreciable % of it's wear will come near that break even point. So I'd give it some temperature margin for longevity.

  • Mmmmmm, earthy warmth!

  • I would love to see some legislation requiring that all AC units are reversible. As you mentioned, the cost to make them reversible is nominal, and their efficiency is amazing on mild days. (Unrelated) I own a Model Y, and the heat pump is amazing. But during those super cold days we had in Chicago this winter I experienced what happens when the cycle can't run any more. It has to send power to the motors out of phase, generating about 3.5kw of waste heat per motor. It's quite loud, and makes the car vibrate a bit. Thankfully that only happens on super cold days! It sure did eat my range though.

  • Passive house technology is really cool. We covered some of it in my heat transfer class and the professor showed us some of the buildings they built as test cases. EDIT1: My university also ran a district heating system on its campus to provide all hot water for heating. IIRC they used a central natural gas heater or boiler of some sort. This was pretty nice because it also made the power grid rather rugged. Even if power was lost, you generally had heat. For their newer structures (A big gym with a ton of grass field space, hmmmmm) they started installing geothermal. EDIT2: Invalidating patents is often a terrible idea and will do more to stifle inventions. The presence of a patent on a new technology that is "revolutionary" spurs on other companies to develop their own version without utilizing the patents of the original, creating more technological advancement. There is a precedent which was set during WWII where the US Government required patent-holding companies to allow other companies to make use of their patents with a royalty agreed upon by the US Government. This had stipulations though that the produced goods had to be something purchased by the Government.

    • This situation would be a good compromise as the original inventor gets to not only still make-up their original cost, they also get to do it faster, and potentially without even making said product themselves. This would free up the ability for more companies to then innovate on top of the patent to improve upon the designs.

  • Damn, this makes me wish I could ever afford to buy a home. I'd love to have all this stuff!

  • My father-in-law put in Geo Thermal in the house he built 18 years ago and always raves about it to me.

  • Highlights: 8:21 ᵘˢᵘᵃˡˡʸ 21:46 25:53

  • Was that an Ellen's Energy Adventure callback I heard in there?

  • "Engineers are smart!" -TC Guy, 2020

  • I'm definitely the kind of person who loves laughing out loud at videos about the complicated inner workings of heat pumps

  • we really need more investment into electric generation of LPG and gasoline. Then we can go full renewable on the front end, and retain existing use modes. Because heat pumps failing when cold means we need LPG....

  • You were bringing up patents and how you think that patents that would benefit us in slowing and reversing climate change should be invalidated. Fun fact: the current worldwide patent classification system has a whole category for those technologies: Class Y02. So, that ain't going anywhere unfortunately.

  • patents = horse shit..... Worst thing ever... Glad they're not international and our friends the Chinese can ignore them

  • R1234yf seems to only be in use in automobiles, does @technologyconnections know when it will be available for home cooling?

  • 11:21 No man, this is not possible. A heat pump powered by gas cannot transfer more energy against its gradient than is contained in the gas. If it was then you could hook up the output of a heat pump to the input of a heat engine and use that to drive a generator for infinite power. Electricity is generated when energy moves down it's gradient (Think water in a dam driving a turbine as the water falls to a river down below. ). You cannot use that energy to then create a greater gradient else where. This would be like using the energy from our dam to pump more water into a different dam at the same height.... You could just make a loop of dams and generators for infinite energy.

    • @Elin Unfortunately it is more complicated than that. We are not simply moving energy from one spot to another, we are moving it against the direction it wants to go. We are taking heat energy from a cold place and pumping it to a hot place. We are creating a difference in the concentration of thermal energy between the inside of the house and the outside. This is the reverse of the process used to create the electricity at the power plant. There they create hot, high pressure gas by burning natural gas and allow the heat and pressure to move to an area that is cold and low pressure. In the process they extract energy for making electricity. It is not possible to use one energy gradient to create a larger energy gradient some place else as he seems to be implying.

    • Isnt that the whole point of a heat pump? You take energy from somewhere and put it somewhere else, and the process of moving said energy takes less energy than you moved. You're not creating free energy, you're just taking it from somewhere else right? So yes you could heat up a home more than the raw chemical energy contained in the gas, since you're not actually using that energy to heat up anything, you're just stealing that heat from somewhere else using that energy.

  • I've just been binge watching yours videos, I just want to say thank you for making this content, I've got a smaller SEnewss channel & I now understand how annoying it is to be stuck to a video schedual. You are awesome cool dude! I wish you a long life filled with joy!

  • Firewood is the answer. A tree scrubs the atmosphere to a higher degree while alive, than the carbon emitted while it rots or is converted to another form of energy.

  • Same principle could be used to cool homes in Summers in temperate regions

  • I have a heat pump clothes dryer!

  • Here in Florida its pretty much standard to have a/c units with heat pump capability. I just had a new system installed, a/c plus heat pump, plus heater strips. Great system, $3300 installed for compressor and air handler (410a)..

  • Ductless AC's will do heating and they are *great*. I have had them for many years. They weren't allowed for economic protectionist reasons until recently...

  • Slightly unrelated rant at YT: I just realized I haven't been getting your videos in my recommendeds. I came to check on your channel today because it's been a little bit since I saw you in my feed, only to find out you've uploaded 3 times since the last video I saw and I had no idea. I hate the way YT's algorithm works because as an avid YT watcher, there are many channels I interact with, but unless I fervently interact with all of them as much as humanly possible, I don't really get a well curated sampling of what I like to watch. Usually it will cull down the recommendations to only those few channels that I happen to have interacted with in the last week, removing the existence of literally anything else from my feed. For example, I binge-watched some videos from a popular artist YTer a couple days ago, and now every other video on my recommended feed is one of his. I like his content, obviously, but that's a little much. I'd like to see some of the other channels I enjoy popping up in there too. I have a long history of watching said other channels that goes far beyond the last week, after all. Just because I haven't seen their stuff in the most recent past doesn't mean they're dead to me in terms of my interest! In any case, just dinged that little bell so that I'll know when you upload from now on, but what I wouldn't give for YT to improve it's algorithm altogether.

  • There were so many excellent points in this video, I'm gonna have to watch it multiple times. The concept of invalidating patents is the kind of attitude we need. "All hands on deck", use whatever we can ASAP.

  • Back when I had a Mac laptop, on cold days, I'd just do stuff on my laptop and the laptop would get SO HOT that I could use it to warm me up. Also I've turned on and held incandescent light bulbs to warm my hands, and nowadays a gaming console does the trick if it's nearby. The heat that comes out of those things is how I imagine a hair dryer feels on its lowest setting. Sitting in the car is also very effective (It works like a solar oven). Somebody once had the idea that we could be using computers as heaters while they just crunched numbers for scientific projects that required tons of calculating. I feel like that's the real solution because it's for a good cause and the heat would otherwise be treated like waste when we actually need it.

  • I'm brazilian and I find it amusing that american ACs aren't reversible. I'm in my 20's and every single unit here I have ever seen is revesible. Also most homes here use electric shower heads instead of having a heated water tank. Say what you want about them but modern ones are f***ing amanzing.

  • You should do a video about o3waterworks!

  • Oh wow, nowdays we use the ,,zippy zappy'' way of power transmission so extensively.

  • Just got my new $1500 Whirlpool heat pump dryer thanks to this video. With 12 KW of solar, electric car, and other energy saving appliances We are inching closer to being a carbon neutral family.

  • so, My air con remote has died. Its been bodged so many times, and I only use it on the odd really hot day (> 35c, I work in a tin shed, im ok with being hot). I wonder if i can hack the AC to ground source... i mean, if i need to rewire it anyway....

  • I would vote for you if you ran for office.

  • Honestly kinda weird we aren't sticking the source tubes under roads whenever we build them. We're gonna dig deep into the ground for their foundation anyway, and imagine being able to make sure the road only freezes once and thaws once per year instead of like 20 of each each spring and autumn.

  • So most towns and big cities are near some big river. If that was used as the heat pump source during winter to heat all those buildings, do you reckon they'd freeze it immediately, or would there be enough heat there?

  • So when we're considering saving power from summer til winter, why are we making electricity with PV instead of concentrating the heat with those mirror and water pipe thingies and storing that away in some big tank somewhere coated in 10 meters of rockwool to be distributed to heatpumps near you in the winter?

  • Heat pump clothes driers are many times also closed loop devices. We have one Siemens unit where the circulation is simple, cold coil -> hot coil -> drum -> cold coil etc.. Water condenses to cold coil and goes down to drain and hot coil heats the air again. Same air just circulates round and round. At the end there is slightly warm (100F or so) air that is reeeally dry circulating and drying happens quite fast. Only air circulation to room is simple fan that cools down the compressor unit but none of the actual dryer air is vented. Downside is that dust collects over time to cold coil as filters leak slightly, I had to pull the whole thing apart to be able to clean the cold coil fins. Of course the coils are below the drum on dryer base inside the air canal as it should have "automatic cleaning" which means that condensed water is poured over of the cold coil few times during drying cycle, but in first 9 years it actually blocked the cold coil airflow and drying time was getting extremely long. After cleaning the fins with compressed air to counterairflow direction the thing runs good as new. Compressor and rotation motor/fan has combined power of approx 900 Watts and one drum full of clothes takes about 1.5 hours to dry so drying the whole batch eats less than 1.5 kWh.

  • Actually big apartment block CAN get enough heat from one hole. That hole just need to be over half a mile deep. Not just research, in production already.

  • #TechnologyConnections4President

  • Me watching for the moment Alec just finally says "it's capitalism. the problem with all the things is capitalism": 👀

  • Why can't you just dig a deep trench and put the spool of tubing in sideways in the bottom 3 feet or so of it, and backfill it? It would do the same job with far, FAR less excavating. The heat transfer would then be horizontal instead of vertical, but just about the same amount.

  • Geothermal isn't a magic solution, you will eventually heat up the earth your looped is placed in and you will not get any more heat. The trouble is the earth/rock has poor heat conductivity.

  • There are commercial buildings, in a downtown, utilizing borehole and heat pumps.

  • Could a house that uses heated floors work with a heat pump though?

  • Heat pump clothes dryers suck compared to "normal" dryers, at least my European one does.

  • My ground loop goes below freezing despite being 6ft or more below the surface, the combination of -20/-40F and lack of moisture in a semi arid climate meaning heat conductivity is limited, but methanol and other additives mean it still works fine.

  • [rude raspberry] The subtitles are fantastic!

  • My condo uses a closed-loop water source heat pump... it uses a really terrible line voltage mechanical thermostat I'm getting replaced with a modern digital one.

  • Our water heater is a hybrid one. We run it on heat pump most of the time. And because it's in the garage, it actually makes a great air conditioner for the garage in the summer. Especially since our garage door is insulated. I can actually just use my garage as if it's another part of the house. However, in the winter it gets hella cold in there.

  • lifehack: if you put your house under ground you don't even have to pump the heat to the surface.

  • 25:00 Holy... $5? Okay, I buy a considerably larger canister for work, but, they cost a GRAND! They never used to cost as much as £1000, but they do now.

  • i live right next to a lake in australia. in the winter it gets down to 10C (50F) at the lowest, and in the summer it gets upto 45C (113F). would it be worth using the lake for heating/cooling?

  • Ac unit that dissipates heat into hot water tank?

  • just wanna say thank you for the subtitles, idk if you write them but i assume so cause your funny notes, just lightens the mood, keep up your amazing work! been subbed for a long time and ill never regret sticking with ya!

  • I'm the UK we have point of use showers.

  • Oh, well done

  • Fully agree, now do combined hear and power plants

  • I was out by myself in the graveyard I was doing an interpretive dance...

  • I love your jacket, man.

  • I'll defrost your outside unit. Sorry, I watched a stupid Nick Cage movie with my brother tonight.

  • Here in French Canada, A/C is almost a foreign concept and our electricity is stupidly cheap and green. Electric heaters make sense here. I say almost, because one half of my building has A/C and my half doesn't. Where did they stick the heat pumps? RIGHT ON TOP OF MY SIDE OF THE BUILDING. There's an extra-loud one atop of my very dorm. Thanks to acoustic bullshit, it is especially noticeable when I'm in bed or at my workstation. I am not fond of heat pumps. I don't care if it's better. I don't care if I could save the planet. Heat pumps are loud boxes over my head and the less I have to hear them, the better.

  • Didn’t get why keeping gallons of water hot is not more wasteful than warming it on demand

  • Citys do use shared thermal heat, look at halifax.

  • I have an easy solution, it's crazy, but ever thing of just running 2 thermostats? also you can use the triggering of the secondary thermostat, to trip open a normally closed relay and cut w line to the line of the other thermostat and it will turn off.

  • Wouldn't ventless clothes dryers be a little dusty on the inside?

  • For this kind of price i would need to consume my current rate of gas and electricty for nearly 30 years before i reach the upfront cost...I admit those are great techs but like solar panels, if you are not rich they are more a financial trap than anything.

  • Heat pump heat is always cold.

  • My Tesla Model Y uses a heat pump to cool and heat the cabin. So it can be done!

  • "Engineers are smart". Many engineers are smart, some have degrees and believe they know more than technicians with decades of experience. - a salty technician.

  • Thank you so much for this video! I was very confused about a construction site in my street where they are making giant vertical holes in the ground with huge tubes. It seemed completely crazy, but now I'm sure it's for a geothermal heat pump!

  • Radical!

  • I mean... Propane (R290) is also a pretty fantastic refrigerant, cheap, operates are reasonable pressures, and practically no GWP and no ODP at all. Buuuut... Well, everyone knows the downside here. People will freak out about propane in a refrigeration system, and yet no one has a problem with 600 gallons of it sitting in a tank behind the house. What about cars, you say? Ok, well, I guess the 10-40 gallon tank of HIGHLY flammable liquid sitting underneath your vehicle is also a problem.

  • My parents added a geothermal heat pump to their house when they built it around '99. They /could/ have taken a vertical system, but since they had the place and were digging around anyway they chose the horizontal system. Unlike in your examples this isn't used for eating the air of the building, but solely for the central heating for both the warm water and the house's floor heating (we only have floor heating). Thus it isn't as easily reversible, but it *does* keep the house cooler in the summer a bit. The system runs without much problems and only around two years ago or so my parents had to replace the pump due to age. 😁 Fun fact: back then our friends had all said that they'd come around with blankets and such when our heating would fail, cause it wasn't that known back then either, but we always had a cozy home with around 23°C 😍 I take it condenser dryers aren't that common in the US then? 🤔

  • Odd that Tesla didn’t invest in developing an automotive heat pump before the model 3 - quite a lot of range bang for a surely fairly small development cost?

  • Thoroughly enjoyed! Heat pump tech seems to be making some big strides lately into the high temp/high delta realm. Should do an episode on commercial scale systems, the COPs on chillers running cooling towers can be extraordinary (>>10) it’s combining an evaporative cooler with a heat pump but it’s still impressive.

  • R-1234yf is still an HFC.

  • New York City has several large district steam systems. They are not growing though.

  • There's also gas-powered heat pumps. You might want to make a video...

  • heatpumps are worse than gas boilers, i would never use a heat pump.

  • Rock isn't that thermally conductive. Thermal Coils will shed temperature certainly. But when the cooling side becomes saturated, the rock will start to struggle to warm up fast enough by soaking heat from nearby rock or soil. But A surface mounted system can dump heat into a subterrainian solution. And you can pretty much dump as much heat down there as you want. It won't STAY but it will at least absorb more heat than any heat pump can dump.

  • "......IM PUMPED FOR IT!" 10/10 for heat pump based PUN EXECUTION